Project: Running T-rex *UPDATED - 26 November*

[3Demonic]

This is destined for greatness!

[Stopmotion]

Really nice Work Sir, The balance and weight on that foot is great,
I can almost hear the pounding on the ground as he's turning,
Looking forward to seeing this to the end, Nice work, ,
Tc,
John,

[graf orlok]

Thanks a million guys. I have a small update today. I've started roughing out the facial features. Everything is pretty preliminary right now. I'm trying my way around.


I have also started filling up the lower jaw with teeth, but more on that later... I will replace the upper jaw teeth before I take more pics.

Log entry:
http://www.swedecreations.com/trexProject/trex04.htm

[bucketfoot-al]

Looking good Staffan! Are you now going to do the "lips"?

[graf orlok]

Looking good Staffan! Are you now going to do the "lips"?

Thanks. As I told in my PM the other week I will go for a more Zdenek Burian style "lips". Which essentially means No lips. Just the gum continuing up, somewhat crocodilian, only more symetrical. But first I have to get the teeth right, so that is why I will replace them alltogether.

[raderstudios]

No offense meant here, but evidence from the skull of T- rex indicates that it had at least small lips, primarily on the upper jaw. I have interpreted tham as looking like "fleshy" crocodile lips.

Just a thought... I'm looking forward to seeing the progress of this one!

If you need a reference for T- rex skeletal shape, check out:
http://www.skeletaldrawing.com

If there's any advice or input that I can provide, I would be honored to help out.

-Jon

[graf orlok]

Thanks Jon, those drawings are great. I believe I've seen the site before, but it has grown tremendously since. The muscle drawing of the Rex is very interesting. I also was under the impression that Stan was more complete than it actually is.

The issue with the lips comes from the fact that I was really conservative about the lips up until I saw the Rexes Weta Workshop did for Kong. After talking to the guys and seeing their Stan-skull in the middle of their sculpting room I thought to myself; even if it's purely fiction and artistic license, it's not a bad idea having them crocodilian.

Still, the fact remains that the row of teeth are pretty straight and very un-crocodilian, but I then realized that the Stan mount has the tooth enamel very pronounced. And this shows a very uneven row of teeth (side-wise). And going back to Burian I realized he actually painted them without the lip and this sparked my enthusiasm for the project. I'll see where this takes me, and if it doesn't work I'll add more traditional "lips". It's just for fun

Edit: Another thing you might help me with Jon (or anyone else for that matter). You seem to have a great knowledge and good contacts when it comes to paleontological theories. Nowadays all tyrannosaurids are portrayed with arched necks, and I really like that idea. But if a Trex stretches out his neck to it's extreme, as mine does, trying to gain as much momentum as possible, would his neck straighten out fully, or would the neck still be arched?

[Harkon]

This gonna be an awesome sculpt, Staffan!
I´m looking foeward to seeing the updates.

Andreas

[kevtk135]

Hey Steffan,

Lips or not it's an awesome sculpt.
Keep up the good work and keep taking pictures!

[raderstudios]

The issue with the lips comes from the fact that I was really conservative about the lips up until I saw the Rexes Weta Workshop did for Kong. After talking to the guys and seeing their Stan-skull in the middle of their sculpting room I thought to myself; even if it's purely fiction and artistic license, it's not a bad idea having them crocodilian.

Still, the fact remains that the row of teeth are pretty straight and very un-crocodilian, but I then realized that the Stan mount has the tooth enamel very pronounced. And this shows a very uneven row of teeth (side-wise). And going back to Burian I realized he actually painted them without the lip and this sparked my enthusiasm for the project. I'll see where this takes me, and if it doesn't work I'll add more traditional "lips". It's just for fun

Edit: Another thing you might help me with Jon (or anyone else for that matter). You seem to have a great knowledge and good contacts when it comes to paleontological theories. Nowadays all tyrannosaurids are portrayed with arched necks, and I really like that idea. But if a Trex stretches out his neck to it's extreme, as mine does, trying to gain as much momentum as possible, would his neck straighten out fully, or would the neck still be arched?

One thing that you have to remember when looking at the preserved Stan skull is that the teeth tend to loosen and slip out of place when the animal dies, creating an exaggeratedly irregular tooth row. That is why you see so much of the root on many of his teeth. At the point where that much root would have been erupted from the dentition in life, T. rex would have already lost it, and would be replacing it. The primary evidence for lips comes from the presence of blood vessels alon the tooth row. These are only seen in animals that have some sort of lip, and are absolutely absent in crocs. I'll try to find a good comparative photo set to post for you.

As for the neck... The posture of the neck looks great. No, they would not be able to straighten their necks fully, just as most modern birds cannot, but this is not an issue looking at your sculpture. The one thing that I would recommend is that it looks like your shoulders are a little too deep. I would maybe take a little material off the back above the shoulders. If you would like, I could try to create some cross sections for you.

Here are a couple of photos of my Stan model (for which I spent 8 hours measuring the skeleton, and I can guarantee the accuracy of).






Not trying to trump you here, just hoping that the photos will serve as good reference for you.

-Jon[/img]

[graf orlok]

hmm... I figured the Stan teeth where sort of pulled out of their sockets, But I didn't realize to what point... I thought that skull looked soooo cool, that's part of why I choose Stan. And I just finished the row of teeth a second time... But this also shows that many re-creations of Trex is pretty faulty on that point. The enamel on the teeth are pretty small and this must mean only a very small portion of the teeth are showing outside the jaw bone. And many spulpts have huge teeth...

While brushing up on crocodiles I found this image:


It's kind of interesting what you said about the markings of blood vessels showing on Trex' jaws. I know about this theory and I have always thought that the markings mentioned are the small pinholes that you find all along the jaw line. I was under the impression crocodiles were without these markings altogether, but this pic clearly shows similar markings... But I'm not sure these are the ones mentioned. Another interesting thing is to see the opening behind the eye socket (post-orbital?). I've often wondered what that would look like fleshed out on the Rex, but I didn't know Crocs shows almost the same features in that socket... Often sculptors skulpt the triangular shape in the socket so that it shows on the outside. But this means you might get some futher understanding from looking at the Croc. My unqualified guess would be that this shape, along with the knob behind the socket, serves as the attachment for the muscles that opens the mouth as it does on the crocodile...

OK, so now it comes down to which way to go; Do I want to do a purely scientificly correct Trex, or do I want to do my vision of a Trex... Have to give it some thought before I carry on. ...but hey! I'm a Vampire type of guy. I love long teeth!

Thanks for your input Jon, and did I mention I like your rex very much?

[bucketfoot-al]

OK. This may sound like I have a split personality given my earlier obsession about getting the TRex's arms 'right', but I vote for BIGGER TEETH.

Jon's sculpt may be more anatomically accurate, but if I look at his model I always think the teeth look too short. I know 2/3 of the teeth were basically embedded in the jaw, hence their enormous strength - but this is a TRex, dammit! Everyone has seen the enormous teeth in museum skulls and hence, WE WANT LONG TEETH!!!!!!!!!

Steffen - you're an artist, correct? Need I say more? An artist always has to put some of his own ideas into his creation, didn't you say something similar?

Jon is more concerned about anatomical accuracy because he works with/for museums, etc, and that's awesome. But for the 'peanut gallery' out here - WE WANT TEEEEEETH!! BIG ONES! (Jon - let's pretend Steffen's Rex had Gingivitis, the gums receded - hence - more teeth visible!!!)

[graf orlok]

Heh, thanks Vlad. Always supportive!
I am anxious to get things right, but I also have my own agenda of what I want to try out in this sculpt. So since my idea was to use that skull to build my vision around I will probably go that route. And then whoever decided to keep Stans teeth on the brink of falling off when mounting that skull gets the blame

But I really appreciate Jon's input from a scientific stand point. It is very valuable to me, Jon. Besides it's good to know what part of the truth I am tweaking, right

[bucketfoot-al]

Yup, I learned something new from Jon on this teeth topic too.

It makes sense - the teeth would lose a lot of their strength if they stuck out too far and be easier to break off. But with 2/3 the length embedded in the skull, they would have been an unmatched crushing machine.

But it just doesn't look, well, T-Rexian enough! (I think that the Walking w/ Dinos animators did a pretty good job here - their teeth weren't excessively long, if I remember right?)

[raderstudios]

I should mention that I don't consider myself to be an artist. What I do is scientific illustration more than art.

The one thing that continuously bugs me, though, are the people who work in the field of paleo-art, and do reconstructions of an animal that aren't researched at all. Some of them are so bad that the skeletons of the animals that the artists are trying to reconstruct can't even fit within the fleshy confines of the sculpture's body!

Fortunately, this is not an issue with your sculpture. It's coming along very nicely. The size of the teeth is a relatively small issue in the grand scheme of things. If you want to maintain some accuracy though, pay attention to the NUMBER of teeth, and their placement along the jaws.

The other thing that I would still recommend is to lower the back above the shoulders, and increase the curvature of the back slightly. This will make it look more dinosaurian than mammalian. It's also a mistake that is commonly made by those who have not studied dinosaur anatomy. I think that if you pay a little attention to that issue, it will create a very striking pose for your piece.

As always, I am happy to provide what advice my countless hundreds of hours of research can provide.

-Jon

[punkasskid]

Hi, Staffan,

I am stoked that I check this spot today, as I rarly ever visit the Tar Pits section of this board...but after seeing this sculpt and knowing your talents, I can't wait to see this one finished up. I lhave loved the T-Rex dinosaur, ever since I was a little kid; something about it's ferocious design has always drawn me to it. I would love to see this in a resin kit for sure. Any thoughts on that?

Sincerely,
Chris

[graf orlok]

...I would love to see this in a resin kit for sure. Any thoughts on that?...

I would love to get it out on the market, but I will not produce it myself. I don't have the time. Actually I don't have the time for doing this either, but I am taking my time It will be a slow process and I usually have like an hour just before bedtime each night. It's not very effective as I'm pretty tired, but it is great fun. And that's what keeps me up. Better than zapping through the channels...

...Fortunately, this is not an issue with your sculpture. It's coming along very nicely. The size of the teeth is a relatively small issue in the grand scheme of things. If you want to maintain some accuracy though, pay attention to the NUMBER of teeth, and their placement along the jaws.

The other thing that I would still recommend is to lower the back above the shoulders, and increase the curvature of the back slightly. This will make it look more dinosaurian than mammalian. It's also a mistake that is commonly made by those who have not studied dinosaur anatomy. I think that if you pay a little attention to that issue, it will create a very striking pose for your piece...

Thanks Jon, notes taken. That makes perfect sense, and I started carving away clay from both neck and back. I will only hint at it, since I still want to keep the momentum up, and I feel he looses dynamic properties if I go too far. He is running at his max, and that should not look effortless... I have to be very careful with that center of gravity and the momentum...

How many teeth are there? I've read that they had 50-60 teeth, so it does not seem to be any exact numbers out there. I've tried counting on the reference pics I have and I currently I think I have 24 teeth in the lower Jaw and 30 in the upper jaw. Have to double check that though. I see the structure of where the big ones go, so that won't be a problem. I'll have new pics up in a day with all the new shiny teeth set in place.

Thanks guys! This place is the best!

[raderstudios]

Actually, the number of teeth is pretty exact. Look at the drawing on http://www.skeletaldrawing.com for reference, Scott has drawn the correct number of teeth on the upper and lower jaws for Stan.

-Jon

[dr.realart.md]

Steffan I salute your artistic skills! I'm enjoying all the discussion here. Two years ago I tried what you are doing so I know how hard it can be trying to animate in a lifelike pose an animal long extinct. Remember every body movement, must be carefully adjusted within the bone and muscle structure. This of itself is very difficult because there are no living reference points other then crocs or birds. I personally don't believe T-Rex could "Run" and it's leg structure design is more suited for walking. That's not to say it's stride wasn't huge and at a modest walking pace, a man running as fast as he can would have had a tough time evading it's jaws. I go with the "Lips" as well and 3/4 dentary covered in gum similiar to the way a lizard's mouth looks. I will try to post my old sculpt to give you a rough idea. Keep up the great sculpting effort!

[graf orlok]

Teeth are in place. Full set of shiny daggers. But as I watch these photo's I actually think they do look a bit big. I will probably push them a bit further into the clay...



And the site update:
T-rex stage 05 - Shiny Teeth: http://swedecreations.com/trexProject/trex05.htm


dr.realart.md: Thanks! I will never be able to please all My standpoint is that I am a firm believer Trex could run. I can't see any reason why not. I've dealt with Trex motion for years and to me it is totally believable. I'm not much for the scavenger-theory either, even though I thing Trex ate whatever he could get his teeth on/in... Besides, my goal is not to make the most accurate version, but to make my own vision of a Trex. If someone likes it, I'd like to share it, otherwise it's only for my mantle piece. I'd love to see your sculpt though!

Jon: The only sketches I can find on skeletondrawings.com of the Trex head is pretty vague when it comes to the front teeth. Otherwise it seems I got it right. Maybe I have one too many on each side of the lower jaw though...